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Talk:Nagato
Nagato page Shouldn't we make a separate page since pain is the 6 bodies and Nagato is guy controlling them : I concur. Pain and Nagato aren't the same being... Heck, Pain is actually a technique utilized by Nagato. 14:39, 16 March 2009 (UTC) :Then why dont we change the name, picture and stop calling him pain Jackrandle 16:34 march 2009 (utc) : I agree, as said above the "six Paths of Pain" is actually a technique and Nagato is the real being Shock Dragoon : Agreed, Nagato is his real name, Pain is just a disguise name he took up because he uses other bodies (and maybe a little because of his goal of showing true pain to everyone as well). As it is now, it's like naming the Hiruko puppet Sasori because Sasori used him or naming Madara's page Tobi just because he uses it as a cover name. -- 15:28, 27 March 2009 (UTC) Six Paths of Pain Now that it has been converted to the "Nagato" page, shouldn't we create a "Six Paths of Pain" page so we can save space on this page? Shock Dragoon :Sounds like a good idea. ~NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Mar 27, 2009 @ 22:47 (UTC) ::I personally don't believe it a good idea as we'd be striping most of the information about the character away. At least until Nagato is dead or permantaly defeated so that we can see what the pages would look like. ~Super Novice-Talk to Me~ 23:03, 27 March 2009 (UTC) ::I'm with Super on this one. Because Pain, just due to simplicity counts as two characters (I.E. Naruto is fighting Pain, he is looking for Nagato), I would wait until we know we don't have to deal with frequent updates before trying anything.--TheUltimate3 23:09, 27 March 2009 (UTC) :::It seems to me like a separate page will be needed soon. The Six Paths of Pain are, in effect, a jutsu utilized by the chakra receivers and the Rinnegan. On pages 13 and 14 of 441 we can see that Nagato does not actually occupy any of the bodies (namely the Deva Path). Instead, he transmits his own chakra to the bodes much like the puppet styles. :::This means that it would be more accurate to classify Nagato as the character and Pain (or the Paths/Deva Path) entirely under either the "abilities" section or in an entirely new article. :::The whole "Pain is Nagato/Nagato is Pain!" argument, while a good guess, lost credence in chapter 442 and was outright disproven in 441. It's probably best that we stop sticking to what's nice and cozy and familiar and change the page to what is the truth.--Newthx2u (talk) 02:49, 4 April 2009 (UTC) NEW PIC WHEN DID THE RED HEAD PICTURE OF NAGATO COME OUT!!!!!!! i never remember seeing this picture in anything is it fan colored?? one more thing should we move the 6 paths of pain and nagato in to 2 diffrent articles--PAIN (talk) 04:48, 3 April 2009 (UTC) :The coloured pictures cam eout with chapter 442. Your second question was already answered in the section above yours. ¥ Super Novice Talk 2 Me ¥ 04:50, 3 April 2009 (UTC) Sorry did not read the article above mine My Bad--PAIN (talk) 04:53, 3 April 2009 (UTC) I for 1 prefer the old pic.. AlienGamer :The old one isn't actually a picture of Nagato though now is it? Though i do admit he is ugly in the picture. ¥ Super Novice Talk 2 Me ¥ 04:55, 3 April 2009 (UTC) ::-had to lol at that- Metus (talk) 08:16, 3 April 2009 (UTC) ::I prefer the old. But I'm gonna wait until others chime in. --TheUltimate3 (talk) 13:08, 3 April 2009 (UTC) :Ya I Agree...These new pics look crappy...to say the least..... AlienGamer ::It's not that it's crappy, cause in truth it's a good picture of Nagato. Just not the first picture we see of him.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 13:39, 3 April 2009 (UTC) At least we should upload a High Quality part of that scan, this is a cropped part of the Sleepyfans scanlation and the qualiy is very bad, the same goes for the pictures in Yahiko and Konan's pages.--Dadadaft (talk) 15:10, 3 April 2009 (UTC) :::It's not that it's a crappy picture (though a higher quality would be great) it's just from my standpoint, that's not the first picture we see of Pain. For all extensive purposes it's the last picture. TheUltimate3(Not at my own computer)-- (talk) 15:12, 3 April 2009 (UTC) ::::I'm sorry Ultimate but what do you mean last? I understand it's the lastest picture but last...? ¥ Super Novice Talk 2 Me ¥ 16:07, 3 April 2009 (UTC) :::::(Before going to class) Since Pain was introduced (i.e. We could see his face) it has been in order, Deva Path, First Animal Path, Preta and Human Path, Then Asura and Naraka Path, New Animal Path, and then after seeing 7 Paths of Pain we finally see Nagato. That's why this is technically his last appearance.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 16:45, 3 April 2009 (UTC) ::::::Oh I understand now. ¥ Super Novice Talk 2 Me ¥ 16:47, 3 April 2009 (UTC) :::::::Image policy has been to use the first appearance that a character has showed up with. The older pic may have been better just like how we use a Tobi pic for Madara Uchiha. ~NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Apr 3, 2009 @ 19:41 (UTC) ::::::::I uploaded the redhead pic. I understand that the "first appearance" pic is the one that's usually used, but God Realm isn't actually Nagato. If this page was the "Pain" page, then God realm would be fine. However, this is the "Nagato" page. Lest just stick to the main pic being a (preferably higher quality) redhead pic.--NurXang (talk) 20:28, 3 April 2009 (UTC) :::::::::I understand what you're saying Dantman but wouldn't this situation be a bit different? In the Madara one It's the same person and body but different names. In this one though it's two different bodies, two different names just both under that same control. ¥ Super Novice Talk 2 Me ¥ 20:32, 3 April 2009 (UTC) ::::::::::It's not two different names. "Nagato" is the old name, "Pain" is his alias. Just like "Madara Uchiha" is using the alias "Tobi". And while he has multiple bodies, it's not a case of control where an external person is being manipulated but still owns that body. Nagito's ability takes dead corpses and allows him to manipulate them as his own body, for all intensive purposes the bodies become his body and no longer belong to the old owner. He may be a patchwork made up of multiple bodies, but they are still his bodies. Just like how Kakuzu takes other people's body parts and replaces his own with them, has multiple hearts none of which even have to be his own, and can separate his body into 5 individual bodies. ~NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Apr 3, 2009 @ 21:45 (UTC) :No. just pretend that the 1st time we saw Kankaro was one of his puppets we still wouldn't put 1 of his puppets for his picture. Vegerot (talk) 14:53, 3 April 2009 (UTC) :I'd say you're correct, this situation is a bit different. This is more like the situation with Sasori and Hiruko. None of the Six Paths of Pain are actually Nagato, they're corpses he controls like puppets using his chakra transmitters. Deva Path, for example, is simply Nagato manipulating and acting through Yahiko's dead body. Unless we get enough information on Nagato to warrant the seperate articles for Nagato and Pain, I think that this is probably for the best; We don't know how much info we'll get on his various bodies when the next data book comes out, so I think it's best to keep this page Nagato-centric for now, since we actually have stats for him. At any rate, I'm currently cleaning up and enhancing a higher quality scan of the 442 frontispiece, and will upload better images of Nagato shortly, as well as Yahiko and Konan. FF-Suzaku (talk) 21:58, 3 April 2009 (UTC) ::Kankuro's puppets are puppets, he controls them through chakra threads. Pain's paths are bodies, he manipulates them from inside without any chakra threads, he sees what they see, and feels what they feel. They are bodies, puppets are inanimate objects. ~NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Apr 3, 2009 @ 22:01 (UTC) :::Actually, he controls them by transmitting his chakra (via the numerous black rods piercing his back) into the chakra reciever piercings on the bodies -- like a remote control. The bodies are the corpses of deceased shinobi, and I believe dead bodies are generally considered inanimate (hence why bringing them to life is called re''animation). He doesn't control them from "within", though if he did, it wouldn't be much different from the way Sasori controls Hiruko, which he wears like armor; furthermore, Sasori was able to transplant his heart into other puppets and take control of them. We still don't know the exact details of how Nagato manipulates them, but it's ''probably similar to the way he is able to paralyze his still-living enemies by stabbing them with the black spears and pouring his own chakra into their bodies (with an image of the Rinnegan always appearing in the background behind them). FF-Suzaku (talk) 23:09, 3 April 2009 (UTC) ::::This is absurd, Nagato's page deserves a picture of Nagato and a Pain page deserves a picture of Deva Path. It's not fair that the wiki has to have wrong images just because the admins think that's the way it should be. Separate the Pain and Nagato pages and the problem will be solved.--Dadadaft (talk) 23:45, 3 April 2009 (UTC) :::::They are technically the same person. If you read the section above this section you can see why they won't seperate them into two pages. ¥ Super Novice Talk 2 Me ¥ 23:49, 3 April 2009 (UTC) I'll refer you all to my reason on the above discussion. Not too sure if it will count seeing as how i disagree with 2 out of the 3 individuals who's opinions actually count.--Newthx2u (talk) 05:56, 4 April 2009 (UTC) ---- Breaking off a bit to make some notes and summarize things a bit. * We have "Nagato" and "Pain" as names. "Nagato" is the real name, and "Pain" is an alias just like "Tobi". ** Note we also have "Six paths of Pain". If we were ever to split pages then it would be "Nagato" and "Six paths of Pain". "Pain" isn't a separate being so the only relevancies are "Nagato" (the person) and "Six paths of Pain" (his technique and alternate bodies) * Nagato has a body of his own which is revealed fairly late on in the manga. * Nagato has six other bodies, whatever you want to call them, he controls them. * Out of these the deva path is the first appearance Nagato makes under the name Pain. ** For the majority of the first part of the series Nagato/Pain is shown the deva path is the body that takes his role. There is something important to point out. One of the things consensually decided some time ago. The wiki is meant to be relevant to anyone reading despite whatever point of the series they are in. That's why we try to avoid "current" things and try to use past tense in articles (a little trouble getting every new editor to understand this though). The relevant point there is that we try to use the first relevant picture of that character since it was agreed on that the first appearance is the most relevant to all readers. There may or may not have been another note in that, I can't quite remember if there was anything about bodies. In any case I just realized we've all forgotten about Sasori for ages and his page was never made to fit whatever policy we came up with. Another thing to note. The new infoboxes when built on the soul eater wiki had an improvement to the image system made on them. It was actually done in the back end so as a result it's even usable inside of the old infoboxes, it was recently moved from the souleater wiki and pushed out across all wiki in the sync que. The |image name= parameter supports some extra options. Size can be specified after a : and anything after a ; gets turned into a caption, as well it's actually setup as a newline separated list so there is support for multiple images inside the infobox. You can take a look at an example in use at w:c:souleater:Kishin Hunt. So it would be possible to have both the deva path and then his original body in the infobox with captions since they are both relevant. ~NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Apr 4, 2009 @ 08:11 (UTC) :::"Now that it has been converted to the "Nagato" page, shouldn't we create a "Six Paths of Pain" page so we can save space on this page? Shock Dragoon" ::::"Sounds like a good idea. ~NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Mar 27, 2009 @ 22:47 (UTC)" --Newthx2u (talk) 00:25, 6 April 2009 (UTC) :An important thing to note about the images. The debate on whether Pain is Nagato or not really has no bearing. It doesn't matter whether by some technicality Pain's bodies are puppets or not. When it comes to things like infobox images identification is what is important. Whether or not the Pain bodies are part of Nagato or not doesn't matter, what matters is the fact that they are controlled by the same will, and for a good portion of the series the deva path was identified with as the appearance for Nagato/Pain. :The big rationale for using earliest images like a part I image of Shino inside the infobox rather than a part II image of him is identification. Shino was identified with by his part I appearance when he was first introduced, that image was stuck with for all of part I, and while he has a new appearance in part II the part I appearance is still relevant to both those reading/watching part I and those reading/watching part II. Thus we use a part I image to identify him. :Likewise, whether or not the deva path is technically part of Nagato or not the fact is that he was identified with as Nagato/Pain's appearance for a good part of the series. Think of it from a new readers perspective; Someone who has gotten up to the recent parts of the anime where "Pain" starts to show up. They come to the wiki and look for "Pain". Get redirected to "Nagato" (even if we create "Six Paths of Pain" there will still only be one character article). Then staring at the infobox think "Who is that? That's not the person I'm looking for information on?" :~NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Apr 6, 2009 @ 19:34 (UTC) he is look ugly in that picture i think nagato's hair is black (talk) 19:39, 6 April 2009 (UTC)hedgehogs :It doesn't matter what we think about how Nagato looks, it's the fact in an offical picture he has red hair. ¥ Super Novice Talk 2 Me ¥ 19:43, 6 April 2009 (UTC) ::Ya, up till awhile ago we were under the assumption that Nagato had orange hair since all of Pain's bodies had orange hair. But fact is the only reason hair looks black in images, is because manga is black and white. ~NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Apr 6, 2009 @ 19:52 (UTC) Editing Ideas Well, I was thinkin', maybe we should make a part about his real body, and his/its abilities, like ya did with the other bodies. And, I know where he uses Wind Release: Violent Wave Palm (I think that's the name, and it would be really cool if Naruto learned this sometime), but why isn't it listed with one of his bodies, or all of them if they can all use it? That's all.--Kagimizu-Seeya 'round~ 22:39, 3 April 2009 (UTC) :It's Wind Release: Violent Wind Palm. It's not listed with any of his bodies because he used he used it as a child, with his real body. As for his main body, any abilities he uses with it should probably be included in the main body of his abilities section. Right now, the article looks as though it would need a considerable amount of updating to bring everything in line with the recent change of making it center more around Nagato than on his "Pain" persona. Ordering of Bodies I believe we should reorder the list of bodies in their order of appearence; Deva, Former Animal, Preta and Human, Asura and Naraka, Animal or whatever offical list Buddisum has for the realms; Deva, Human, Asura, both Animals, Preta, Naraka. wikipedia:Six realms ¥ Super Novice Talk 2 Me ¥ 23:02, 3 April 2009 (UTC) :I thought we were already ordering the bodies by order of appearance? If the ordering is wrong then that should be fixed to be in order of appearance. ~NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Apr 3, 2009 @ 23:06 (UTC) ::I've put them in correct order by appearence now. Dantman, question how are we going to handle the 'path' in the name of the Sage of the Six Paths? ¥ Super Novice Talk 2 Me ¥ 23:14, 3 April 2009 (UTC) :::Need a little more thought on how to deal with what is a title and what isn't. ~NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Apr 4, 2009 @ 04:41 (UTC) ::::Ok, thoughts are a little clearer. We have "Path", "Six Paths of Pain", "Pain Rikudo", "Sage of the Six Paths", "Rikudo Sennin", and "Some Path". The biggest issue was that I looked through the article and saw a huge pile of capitalized "Paths" which were completely ungrammatical since path isn't a proper noun. Quite frankly "Six Paths of Pain" looks odd, but I guess it and "Sage of the Six Paths" are titles. "Some Path" is debatable however. ~NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Apr 4, 2009 @ 08:25 (UTC) Main Picture Shouldn't the main picture be a picture of the real Nagato, and not the one of the Deva path? The picture that is in the article is just the Deva Path. I suggest using this one. Also, shouldnt the Yakiko main article picture be that of the Deva Path? Just asking, because on a flash page, it was organized like such: Konan as a kid, Konan, Yahiko, Deva Path, Nagato as a kid, real recent Nagato, etc... --NejiByakugan360 (talk) 14:18, 6 April 2009 (UTC) :Read this section. ¥ Super Novice Talk 2 Me ¥ 14:26, 6 April 2009 (UTC) ::I'm all with you on this, man, it makes perfect sense to have the Nagato page have a pic of Nagato. Unfortunately Dantman, SuperN, and Ultimate3 dissagree with this oppinion, so the rest of our oppinions don't really hold any sway right now. --Newthx2u (talk) 18:09, 6 April 2009 (UTC) :::This has absolutely nothing to do with opinion right now. The current image is set as the deva path image because that is the image we used to have up, discussion on the topic has not finished and consensus has not been established, so we leave the image as it used to be. There is more to consider than just opinions on whether pain is nagato or not, and a compromise has been suggested as well. ~NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Apr 6, 2009 @ 19:20 (UTC)